Google YouTube on TelstraClear: is this still affecting you?
I have been using TelstraClear cable modem services for many years, in its many different "brands" - Chello, Saturn, TelstraClear - and really enjoy having a plan that provides me with consistently good speeds and reliability (but don't try calling their customer services line).
Digital media in all its different forms is now part of many families every day life. Here at home we are able to rent and buy movies from iTunes at any time and have those quickly delivered to our media center. We have two VoIP lines at home, being completely POTS free. We have 100GB+ of online backup stored at Mozy servers - including all those iTunes movies, music, family photos and short movies captured with our Flip video camera. We have six computers at home, and we work from home.
This is all possible because we subscribe to a TelstraClear 80GB cable modem plan with good download and upload speeds - and frequently go over the cap. I don't mind paying for the service when it provides me with the means to exercise my freedom - freedom of work, freedom of play.
A few years back, Dr Allan Freeth, TelstraClear CEO was quoted as saying "the main result of faster broadband links to the home may be more downloads of pornography and movies rather than improvements to productivity." This was also reported on Computerworld.
That statement made then InternetNZ Executive Director Keith Davidson jump with a release saying "Dr Freeth's view that true high-speed broadband available at home is not important for New Zealand's future is not a view we share. High speed broadband - 100mbps and more - is vital to New Zealand's future" .
So what? The Internet is for Porn (safe for work except for the word "porn"). But try watching this short movie on a TelstraClear connection - even a fast 10Mbps connection - and you might have problems. Actually since just before September last year people started reporting problems when accessing YouTube clips over a TelstraClear connection.
This problem is still going on, and while TelstraClear have very quietly admitted there's a problem, it seems the solution is not coming any time soon.
Could it be that politics of peering are involved in this? Peering is a very sensitive subject within TelstraClear. Dr Allan Freeth remarks were "Peering has become an extremely emotional issue, as noted in the recent Internet NZ report, which also noted there was no evidence of market failure. Our decision was a commercial one - we need to earn a return for the use of our assets. While some people believe the Internet is 'free', I can assure you my shareholder doesn't see it that way. Organisations that have content they want to supply to end users can buy a service from us, which is tied in with the cost of national carriage. This is still more cost effective than international bandwidth."
A lot of an ISP traffic goes to all of Google's properties. YouTube is probably the biggest one of those services and to help reduce traffic, Google does peer locally with larger ISPs. It basically comes to this: Google is clever and wants free (or low cost) distribution of its content. To this end they enter an agreement with larger ISPs and colocate cache boxes.
Of course if your ISP don't have one of these boxes then your traffic to Google's online properties needs to find the content somewhere else. In TelstraClear's case it seems this traffic goes all the way to the US and back.
There are local YouTube caches in New Zealand, with other ISPs. But the problem then is back to the peering camp. It seems TelstraClear rather have a lot of traffic going out over international connections than to have it flowing locally and pay for it to a competitor.
If this is not the case, I'd love to see an explanation from TelstraClear - something I feel they owe their customers. To me it comes down to YouTube access through TelstraClear is crippled and the way the company acts is disrespectful to their paying customers.
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Comment by Neil Gardner, on 1-Feb-2010 14:21
But there's the problem. You are staying and supporting a service that isn't good enough - Although, judging you by your actions, it actually IS good enough.
It would send a much stronger message to TelstraClear if you got fed up enough to drop their service and went to another provider than if you kept on complaining but kept paying them month after month after month.
(Disclosure - I work for another provider. You should check them all and go for the one that best matches your requirements)
Cheers - N
Comment by Buttonmash, on 1-Feb-2010 14:22
Not to mention you'd be trading one problem (YouTube performance) for another (much lower upstream bandwidth).
I'm getting a little jaded regarding TelstraClear myself. I'm on the $150 80GB plan and it's just too much money for what you get. I can get a 25GB Slingshot naked DSL connection for $80 and then pay $50 for a 50GB chunk of data which rolls over the unused amount. While this is less than the 80GB Telstra give me they also have unmetered downloads from 2am until 6am which will take a very good chunk of that out if I schedule my downloads/backups.
Comment by sbiddle, on 1-Feb-2010 15:33
The real problem is nobody else is delivering residential services that come close to TCL cable in many aspects.
No ADSL provider can offer 2Mbps upstream. Most ADSL providers struggle to provide 10Mbps downstream at peak time. Both are easily done over TCL cable.
VoIP is far more stable that over most residential services (with WxC being one of the few who can guarantee QoS)
Comment by miramarmike, on 1-Feb-2010 16:35
If nothing else it's an issue they've acknowledged yet nothing seems to be done about it - just bad customer service!
And (to repeat others) it's the ONLY problem I have with TelstraClear, everything else is kick ass.
Comment by chiefie, on 1-Feb-2010 17:08
You forgot to mention it was also known as "TelstraSaturn" at one stage.
I too rate TCL great with all other services except YouTube but it's not the end of the world for me, and I won't trade TCL's cable internet for other internet connection, no one else can match TCL's offering of services in regards to our usage.
Comment by Quentin, on 1-Feb-2010 17:19
Telstra are muppets. About 5 years ago they de-peered from pretty much every content provider in NZ. Tvnz, radio NZ, infact anything at Citylink ( including debian mirrors) comes from the USA for me and other telstra customers. Previous press reports suggested (along with an NZNOG session run by someone from rnz a few years back) that It is more than 10 times more expensive for a domestic peering connection to telstra than it is to serve content from the USA.
Comment by Fuskare, on 1-Feb-2010 17:55
I too am a TelstraClear customer (UCLL - Homeplan), and a TelstraClear employee, that has heard, read and tried to learn about the YouTube issues.
While I can't, nor am I the person to make a statement on behalf of the company, I can say with confidence that everyone within TelstraClear is aware of it, and people are working to resolve it as quickly as they can, and that you're not just an unappreciated monthly figure to say the least.
I would hope that with the rest of TelstraClear's performance and service factors, you are happy with what the company aims to deliver to you and others, and also, that the DOCSIS 3.0 upgrade will continue to build on the quality of internet you receive, and keep the cable network as something people like myself up in Auckland (and when I lived in Wellington), wished to have. - We'll see when that arrives I guess.
I doubt this post will go unnoticed, but I'll pass it on to someone who may be able to make a proper comment to you, so you and everyone else reading this knows that TelstraClear does care about your opinions and wants to fix this, and nothing less.
Comment by mattbush, on 1-Feb-2010 19:18
I believe the key message that the customers have been making is that they would like some sort of response from TCL rather than the void.
Whilst TCL currently provides superior service in the cable geographies, it should be noted that its competitiors are catching up. Unless TCL becomes a little more customer reactive it wont be too long before people WILL actually be voting with their feet.
Pick up your game TCL!!!!!!
Comment by Sam McLeod, on 1-Feb-2010 21:27
OH my god.
I have had nothing but problems with Telstra and freaking youtube, it's been a MAJOR headache for me and other friends which are / WERE with TCL,
I'm thinking of leaving and going to snap.
-Sam.
Comment by kiwifrenzy, on 1-Feb-2010 21:48
I with and Mauricio and Steve Biddle on this. Apart from this really annoying Youtube problem (that has gone on for too long), I'm happy with the rest. I don't watch enough Youtube to quit TCL, but boy it can be frustrating when I do.
Comment by harvs45, on 1-Feb-2010 22:08
If Telstra Clear are aware of the issue then it's news to me!!! not 2 weeks ago did I ring them complaining about this issue to which the tech's denied knowledge of the it. I asked to speak to a manager who also denied the issue. The fact that every other ISP are always updating their pricing - plans and speed while Telstra has only gone up by $5 on my 20gb 10Mbps plan in the last 18 months what a joke. My friend just had chorus around fixing his street up for ADSL2+, old house with crap wiring and yet he still connects at 16Mbps. Why can Telstra only offer you 25Mbps if you pay $225 per month and be forced to get a 120GB pack? Safe to say we know they can do the speed so why not offer it in smaller cheaper packs.?
While I'm a gamer and love they low latency I feel they are taking me for a ride with speeds and pricing and can surely do better and in fact will have to with the roll out of ADSL2+!!!
Comment by kiwitrc, on 2-Feb-2010 08:29
Hey Quentin, thats being a bit hard on Muppets dont you think?
Comment by Jason Pollock, on 2-Feb-2010 10:31
Interesting, if you click through the links, you eventually come to the requirements for peering with Google:
" The minimum qualifications are 5 Mbps of Google traffic and the ability to interconnect using Gigabit Ethernet at one of these 33 major Internet exchange points."
Where "major Internet exchange points" are:
New Zealand
Wellington Internet Exchange (WIX), Wellington
Neutral New Zealand Internet Exchange (NZIX)
Auckland Peering Exchange (APE), Auckland
In other words, to get connected to Google directly, they will have to turn the WIX back on - for Google at least.
Comment by bbdigital, on 2-Feb-2010 10:54
Dont forget that connection speed means very little (It is more of a potential than anything else). I hear alot of people tell me they have a 10Mbits connection yet often they can't download files as quick as my little 4/1 wireless connection at home.
The key is how much internet capacity is fed via the connection or what the contention ratio is.
I use the analogy of pipes and water... Your connection (often the only advertised speed) is the pipe and the fatter the pipe the more water you can potentially fit. But just because you have a fat pipe doesnt mean it will be filled with water (there may still only be a trickle) so the key is how much water if being fed into the pipe.
Comment by Ragnor, on 2-Feb-2010 13:17
The google caches connected to APE/WIX are run by Orcon (if I recall correctly) but remember Telecom has it's own caches on it's own network not accessible via APE/WIX...
Presumably Telstraclear could host their own like Telecom is doing, they are the 2nd largest ISP in the land but I imagine their is a significant cost/planning/negotiation involved which is why it hasn't happened yet.
If they are investigating/negotiating to host google caches on their own network they probably aren't able to talk about it yet.
If they were able to make a statement saying they were planning/negotiating to host their own google caches it would probably reduce customer angst a lot.
Finally if you are close enough to the exchange or cabinet Naked ADSL with Maxnet offers be comparable download performance (perhaps better if you are really close to a cabinet or exchange) and better pricing than TCL Cable. Cable has the advantage with upload but Maxnet peer at APE/WIX unlike Telecom and Telstra which is a huge bonus imo.
Comment by Kez, on 2-Feb-2010 16:43
Its a real shame for Telstraclear that youtube is so big ... this one site has created a lot of 'street level' bad feedback that they simple need this fixed ASAP. Ive been on 25mbit for a few months now and it really doesn't sit good that such low grade vids from google's, (I hope this is right... ) youtube severs takes the connection down to cell phone like speeds.
Ive sat back on this for months now but now im getting short with it ... This must be in the hard basket if its not been sorted yet so could I come out and say ...
Karma on Telstra for dumbing local peering like WIX if thats the fix ... sitting right there all pre wired ? lol
And I've always believed local peering networks like WIX is worth more that getting 10mbit + at home.
Comment by Tom, on 12-Feb-2010 11:45
Over teh last 2 - 3 days Youtube has been basiucally unwatchable. 30 minute s+ to download a 4 minute low res clip.
I'm paying $150 a month for internet to TC and I can't even use YT.
If the problems persist it WILL become a deal breaker.
Comment by GW, on 5-Mar-2010 21:00
I too spat tacks when Telstra de-peered. Their greed quite frankly is unbelievable. Not only do they want to charge the me for sending and receiving data, they also want to charge the content provider as well.
I'm on a 50GB/10mbit connection, I have never seen it run at full speed. Currently I don't have access to ADSL2+. The best that Telecom can offer in my street is 2-3mbit ADSL speed. I'm in Wainuiomata Lower Hutt so it's not like I'm out in the sticks. Telecoms plans are way more competitive. I have no choice but to stick with Telstra until my street gets upgraded. After that it's bye bye Telstra.
Comment by Matt, on 8-Mar-2010 16:15
@ harvs45
If I am correct and you say you are a gamer on ADSL2 and you are complaining about latency issues, and you are with TCL, why not pay $5 to turn off interleaving. This will fix your issue.
For the most part, I too believe the service TCL provides its customers in relation to YouTube as being subpar. My understanding of the issue is TCL do not access the local based Google caches.
I also know this is not a 5min fix. TCL will need to put up their own Google cached services, to add to the growing content services. Clearnet Delux, ZIN, Microsoft, ZEN, Oracle to name a few.
Comment by Scott, on 10-Jul-2011 12:53
Hi guys, just wondering if this problem is still ongoing with Telstraclear and YouTube a year on? I'm currently on Slingshot ADSL2+ in Wellington (Johnsonville) and the speeds have definitely improved over the last several months. I get around 10MB down fairly consistently, and no longer have the YouTube and TVNZ OnDemand buffering issues I experienced until recently.
I'd stick with it, but I'm considering dumping my phone line for VoIP and TC's upload speed and presumably lower latency should make the VoIP service more reliable. And since TC have upped their download bandwidth from 10MB to 15MB and their pricing is generally cheaper than naked ADSL, it all looks pretty good on paper.
But my partner likes to watch a lot of YouTube and I won't be very popular if I exchange our current adequate experience for annoying buffering issues again. Especially if we get locked into a 2 year contract.
So for those of you still on TC, what is the current experience like, and do you think I should switch or stick with ADSL2+?
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Comment by Neil Gardner, on 1-Feb-2010 13:45
I've been watching you on twitter / GZ / blogs complain about this for MONTHS.
If it's THAT important to you, vote with your feet. You do have options. Some may cost slightly more, but remember, you'd be leaving for a better service with better support - it's natural it would cost a bit more.
Cheers - N